Transcript interview with Caroline Barnard-Smith

00:00 - Natalie (Host)

5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Good afternoon everybody and welcome back to my podcast here on Plotted Out, and today I have Caroline Barnard Smith. She is a sub-stack writer. She's known as the Swamp Witch and she has a new book coming out this year called the Obsidian Druid. She does sci-fi and fiction fantasy and I am thrilled to have her here. Welcome, caroline.

00:25 - Caroline (Guest)

Hi, so good to be here.

00:28 - Natalie (Host)

It really is Like myself. Caroline is from the UK, so you might dictate, especially if you're in the US, a certain similarity in our accents. So, caroline, which part of the UK are you from?

00:41 - Caroline (Guest)

Well, I mean Devon, lovely sunny Devon.

00:45 - Natalie (Host)

And I'm just over the border in North Cornwall and Bews. At some point We'll have to get together, oh wow, that's too far at all. No, no, not at all. There we go. Great minds think alike all the way on the web. So can you tell us a bit more about your awesome life and times? I mean, what prompted you to start writing on sub-stack?

01:05 - Caroline (Guest)

Sub-stack. Well, I hadn't heard of sub-stack really until last year, but I'm always behind everything that is new and exciting, unfortunately, and I got here eventually. I think I heard about it on Twitter, actually, during the Great Twitter Exodus. Everyone was talking about you know where are we going to end up? And different social media websites, and obviously sub-stack is not a social media website, but it does have the same sort of aspects, doesn't it?

01:39 - Natalie (Host)

So I went and it definitely does.

01:41 - Caroline (Guest)

Please keep going the whole newsletter angle. I thought that was enormously exciting because you can almost treat it as writing it as a blog if you want to, can't you? Which is how I've treated mine, and I used to love writing a blog years ago. So, yeah, I gave it a go.

02:03 - Natalie (Host)

Here you are. You are indeed, I mean speaking, which is going to say what we do in prior to sub-stack. Like me being around a while and you said you had a blog years ago. I mean, was it on WordPress? Was it on one of the other systems? How did it work for you? How did you use to write?

02:19 - Caroline (Guest)

Oh, it was on WordPress and it was called Screaming Into the Virtual Wind, which is a very overwarped title I'm quite embarrassed about. Now it's long been removed from the internet, absolutely absolutely.

02:35 - Natalie (Host)

But mind you, I think we've all been there, we've all done that. Like I'm writing this, I'm sending that onto the void. Who knows what's going to happen next. If we're lucky, someone might wave back. If we're really unlucky, it's the void itself that waves back. You know, I feel like a thule. Yeah, honestly, I think every single person that's ever written on sub-stack or read a sub-stack has felt that before. And it's still a baby in internet giant terms. It's growing rapidly thanks to notes and all the other stuff and people coming on board. But you're definitely not behind the curve, Caroline, at all. So that's great, it's really good and it's great to have writers of your calibre on here. So where did the swamp witch inspiration come from? The name?

03:16 - Caroline (Guest)

Swamp Witch. That I'm not actually sure. I just liked the sound of it, I think, calling a newsletter Caroline Barnard Smith. It just sounded like a bit of a mouthful, to be honest. So I wanted something. I don't know, memorable. I suppose Swamp Witch is memorable.

03:39 - Natalie (Host)

It's definitely memorable. But yeah, swamp Witch, of all the things you know, it reminded me of Macbeth, with the witches going: “When shall we three meet again?” Yep, we could go for the Swamp, we could go for the sea or we could go for a nice tea shop.

03:52 - Caroline (Guest)

It was less embarrassing than screaming into the virtual wind.

03:56 - Natalie (Host)

There is that. There is that we're not screaming into the wind anymore. We're all good there. How did your writing journey start, though? I mean, was there a gradual build up, or was it just an aha moment? I'm going to start this now. Was it a bet?

04:11 - Caroline (Guest)

Well, it's really been a. It's been a journey of two halves my writing journey. I've been writing pretty much forever and I did. I did have some small success in my 20s actually. I sold some short stories, mostly to little venues and they'd normally pay in. You know, contributors, copies, that sort of thing. And then, the most exciting thing, I did sell a novel to a small press and I know it was very exciting and that was a. That was a vampire novel. I was very into vampires at that time.

04:52

Who wasn't, and I was fortunate that you won't find that anywhere now. It's been long out of print. But yeah, that was the way I was going. And then I had children, which it wouldn't have been a problem, but I had. I had my first child and then I felt pregnant again, and that was twins. So life was a bit mad for a while.

05:20 - Natalie (Host)

That sounds like an understatement. That's an understatement. Life with twins is always madness. And if we had one beforehand? Yeah, speaking as a mother, that's the hardest part - shutting yourself away to write when you get like “mum, come and play, or mum, can you do this? Or mum, I'm hungry.”

05:36 - Caroline (Guest)

Yeah, Very hard, trying to do it when they're sleeping, or? Oh, it's hard fitting it in, isn't it? It can be it really, really can be.

05:48 - Natalie (Host)

So then what happened? So you said your career was in two halves, so that's your first half in your 20s. Then we had the kids coming in like an explosion across the landscape. How did you get back?

05:57 - Caroline (Guest)

into writing. Yes, explosion. And I mean I always wanted to keep, keep writing, but there was this long low and finally my children were all at school. That sounds like I couldn't wait to get rid of them. It wasn't really like that.

06:15 - Natalie (Host)

No, no, it never is. But at the same time it's nice to reclaim a bit of like your life for yourself. So I totally get what you're coming from.

06:23 - Caroline (Guest)

And then I started again and I wrote some more short stories and I submitted them and I have had a couple of stories published. But then there was this novel, the obsidian druid, which is the novel that is going to be coming out in April. That's been about 10 years in the making actually. Wow, Awesome, yeah, that's way too long. The second one will not take it. No, there's no such thing as way too long when it comes to books.

06:53 - Natalie (Host)

Okay, you know you look back at some of the great writers and some of them will take years to craft a book. We're still waiting for George to finish the Game of Thrones series off. I actually know it is so that makes me feel better.

07:06 - Caroline (Guest)

Yeah, yeah. It takes me all that time to get here and I'm finally ready to release it into the world, I suppose.

07:16 - Natalie (Host)

And how is your novel going to be released, Caroline? Tell us a bit more about it.

07:21 - Caroline (Guest)

Well, I'm self-publishing the Obsidian Druid. Even its publishing story has been very long and protracted. To be honest, I started out it started as a short story, actually Another short story, and then that just it, just it grew. I liked the world, so I built on the world. And then you think, well, I need some more characters to people, this world. And it just grew and grew and that short story is now in chapters, about halfway through that first novel.

07:57

And yeah, and then I wanted to serialise it. I did. I put the first few chapters on Wattpad and a couple of other sites and, yeah, and that was really fun, that was a great experience. And then I changed my mind again and I thought, do you know, I think I want to see this as more of a traditional novel, you know, not serialised, but as a novel. And so I pulled it all down and, yeah, I started working on it as a complete novel, not just serialised. And well, I'm here now. I did submit it to some agents and some publishers and changed my mind again. So that was what. Was that the third change of mind about this novel? But I was put off by a lot of horror stories. Actually, you know, you might sell a trilogy and then the second and third books can be dropped if it doesn't sell.

08:59 - Natalie (Host)

Yeah.

09:00 - Caroline (Guest)

Books dying on sub and I thought do you know what I really like doing things for myself? I really enjoy that and I should just self-publish it. And here I am really.

09:15 - Natalie (Host)

Yeah, which is absolutely fine. It's the valid thing. I think a lot of us have been through the same process and it's a dance. I don't think it's all or nothing on either side. These days Some people say I want to go down self-publishing route for this and traditional for that, and vice versa. I really recommend looking at a sub-stack writer on here called Russell Nohati if you want the self-publishing route, because he does that. That's his specialism and he has a lot of good advice on his sub-stack for people that do that side-to-side line. If we haven't come across him, so have a look at him and I will put that link, drop that link into the post for you, those of you who are listening to this, Caroline, tell us a bit more about the obsidian druid. If I was going to pick it up in a bookshop, what would I be looking at and reading? What's the dust jacket like?

09:58 - Caroline (Guest)

What is the dust jacket like? Well, it's set on three women and they're coming from very different places and we start in a city. Because when I was writing this I really did go back and think well, if this was my perfect fantasy world, what would I want in it? And I definitely wanted a dark city, full of alleys and taverns and secrets, and, you know, you might find someone a bit dodgy on every corner. That's that sort of city I'm sure you're not describing London here.

10:35 - Natalie (Host)

It's no way. How's it?

10:36 - Caroline (Guest)

going. So, yes, it's about them in this city, really. And one of the characters is there. She's out for revenge. Her family were killed and she's quite certain she knows who the guy is, but, you know, instigated those events that ended up with her family dying. So she is out for revenge. And then we've got Vamp, who is a city guard, and the first character is called Gwyn. So Vamp and Gwyn running to each other and Vamp does not want to help Gwyn at all because that would make her a traitor. And it's really about will Vamp change her mind and how will Gwyn change her mind? And at the same time there's giant monsters crawling out of the dungeon that is beneath the city, basically destroying everything in their path.

11:39 - Natalie (Host)

So that was that sounds like a pretty bad emergency going on there. Yes, you know, if we get climate change, we've got monsters, monsters coming from the zoos.

11:52 - Caroline (Guest)

Oh, there's also some problems.

11:56 - Natalie (Host)

Oh, definitely, you can't do a fantasy love without goblins. I agree Completely, caroline. It sounds like you've taken a lot of the major fantasy troops and you played with them and that's really refreshing to hear. A lot of people are like, oh, I need to be cut and urged and I'm moving away from, you know, the usual D&D board games or moving away from the traditional fantasy, but you've doubled into it and it sounds like come up with a perspective on it.

12:18 - Caroline (Guest)

Well, that is really where it started, to be honest, I mean before I before I pulled it as a serial and I got all serious about it. Oh no, it's going to be a novel. It's going to be a novel now. Before that I really was, I was starting to get back into writing after having my children and I was. I'm just going to have fun with this. I'm going to make my ideal fantasy world and I'm going to put all the tropes and places in it that I ever enjoyed and you know a lot, of, a lot of. When I look back at what I really enjoyed as a kid, did you ever read those fighting fantasy books?

12:53 - Natalie (Host)

A few of them. Yes, yeah, I'm not ashamed to say that I loved that. I loved that.

12:59 - Caroline (Guest)

So I knew I wanted. I wanted the big scary city and definitely a twisting dungeon underneath and then the fantasy forest. So it did start with that, but then I got more serious about it as it went on. Yeah there's.

13:14 - Natalie (Host)

there's nothing wrong in having a bit of fun to start with. Question is where your characters lead you, and since this has been a book 10 years in the making, it must be quite rich when it comes to your characters. Now you've literally grown up with them.

13:26 - Caroline (Guest)

I like to think so. Yes, there's. There is one character who ends up being a mother in the book and because I started writing it when my children were so young, I really I wanted to talk about you know what it was like having very young children and and babies, and so, because it's taken so long, I think I'm going to have a lot more to say now about having older children, because they've grown up alongside the book.

13:56 - Natalie (Host)

Yes, yeah, like to tell a genie, that's that's. That's one of the first books written in Japan and the woman there who wrote it for the Imperial Court, she serialized it a bit like we did today. Obviously, she's writing a paper at the time that long ago, and literally the serial grip alongside her child and he ended up being known as a child of genie. Wow, I know, I know it's well worth seeking out the story behind that. But, yes, amazing stuff, you know it puts Combination Street in a stretch aid for Tales of Chini. But what I will say as well is that now that you've got that book self-published and you're coming out and obviously you're doing the marketing for it and getting everyone ready and excited, are you doing any of the writing alongside that?

14:40 - Caroline (Guest)

I am. I have started the second book because when I decided to go for this and I'm going to set a publication date, I'm going to put everything in motion I thought, well, the second one needs to happen. So I've been quite diligent yeah, not in another ten years. I've been quite diligent in getting that down and done. That is going on alongside Brilliant. I do have more plans as well for later this year. There's been another novel I've been working on which is more of a sci-fi fantasy and I thought that might be really fun to serialise, because I'd like to do more on Substack and I think that would be a really fun idea to serialise that on Substack, yeah definitely.

15:28 - Natalie (Host)

I've been referring to 2024 as the year of serialisation for Substack because I know so many people that are going down that route. It finally makes sense to do it. I'm, inversely, doing a serial myself at the moment, on my own tell the two cities, which was intended to be a short story. So I sympathise with you. When suddenly, you end up with this novel on your hands, it just blossoms up its own accord, doesn't it? Yes, so let me get this straight. So you are publishing your first book and can people find that on Amazon while you have it linked on your blog? How is that going to work?

15:59 - Caroline (Guest)

Oh, the pre-orders will be available very soon, but are you all news about that? We'll be in my Substack, if you'd like to check that out, and also on my website.

16:11 - Natalie (Host)

Perfect, perfect, okay. So you've got that book coming up, you're writing your second one and you've got a third one you're planning to serialise. So it looks like 2024 is really busy for you.

16:21 - Caroline (Guest)

That sounds exhausting when you say it like that yes, but not all at once. No, no, I have to plan things out quite well, because otherwise I do tend to pile too much on and then nothing gets done. Does it? It is a problem?

16:42 - Natalie (Host)

So how do you do your planning, then? Can you tell us a bit more about your process? How do you keep it all straight and keep yourself sane whilst running a family?

16:51 - Caroline (Guest)

Well, I like using pen and paper, so I've got one of those very fancy planner journal things that come with the stickers and you can plan it out a week at a time. That's what I like, so I can see the whole week in front of me and I just go forward in months. Well, this project is going to be this many words and I'll try and work out how many words that will be per day to get it done by this point and I'll put that all in for the whole year through, which makes me sound a bit mad now that I'm saying it out loud, but that's been working.

17:27 - Natalie (Host)

No judgement here.

17:28 - Caroline (Guest)

Thank you and, yeah, anything else that's happening will go in there as well, and it just means I can see it, all you know, at a glance, and I find that much easier. Plus, I'm really I'm very lenient on myself with word counts. The second novel I'm writing at the moment I'm going for 500 words a day, which isn't very much really. A lot of writers say 1,000 to 2,000 a day, don't they?

17:57 - Natalie (Host)

I disagree on that. Actually, I think, if you're aiming for around 400, I mean, bear in mind, thinking time and sometimes the research or backing up time are doing it as well especially if you're doing small spurts, can you take up an hour or two. I mean, I've had occasions when I've just written that much and you know, to my mind, that is really really good. Bear in mind, you're not doing it as your full-time job.

18:19 - Caroline (Guest)

Yeah, exactly, I find that works really well. I'm not put off by having to sit down and write 500 words. It seems manageable and also the book is still progressing.

18:30 - Natalie (Host)

Yes, and that's how the work. I mean, do you plot out beforehand what your main themes are, your threads and where the plot line goes, or do you just go hack it and see what happens?

18:40 - Caroline (Guest)

I'd love to be able to do that, but I've never been able to. I have to plot it all out. Although I'm not totally, I have a good idea how the trilogy it's called the Age of Icarna. This trilogy and the Obsidian Druid is the first book. I've got an idea how the trilogy will end, but that's very hazy so I haven't got that all planned out yet.

19:04 - Natalie (Host)

Leave some room for some time. I think the main thing is you've got an idea of where you're going, which is half the battle. And yes, when you're writing in public in serials, especially like I and a few of my friends do, it's a case of I have no idea what's going to happen next week, but I've managed to land this on a twist and let's see what happens. So the fact that you're kind of doing it in private you can go back and edit it, so to speak is actually a great bonus.

19:31 - Caroline (Guest)

I'll see how I go when I start my serial.

19:34 - Natalie (Host)

Oh, definitely, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, absolutely, it does happen occasionally. That's one of the joys of it, especially if you bring your audience with you, which I'm sure you will. So where can people find more of your short stories? How can we have appetite whilst waiting for Obsidian Druid?

19:48 - Caroline (Guest)

Well, I do have some short stories on my website you can look at. There will be more stories on my substacks soon because I was ever so honoured. Last year I won one of the Lunar Awards for writing the Viper. That was a great one.

20:15 - Natalie (Host)

And I do recommend that to anyone who hasn't read it yet. Writing the Viper is a brilliant, brilliant story with a nice twist in the ending. So yeah, go do that if you enjoy fantasy fiction, especially the classic type which Caroline specialises in.

20:27 - Caroline (Guest)

Do you know why I said that in how I'd won that? That was very smooth, wasn't it?

20:33 - Natalie (Host)

Thank you, Okay, it was. You've only just ruined it. Now I'll have to go back and edit this out. If you're listening to this, disregard this comment. Okay. So obviously your audience is growing very nicely and it kind of helps that you slip in a lot of nostalgia. So you go back to things like Guy Fawkes and Webtoote 1.0 and what life was like before we had Amazon and Twitter. I mean, what's been the most fun comment you've had on your sub-sat blog or indeed on your website?

21:06 - Caroline (Guest)

That's a good question, the most fun comment. I had to get a nice comment. At the end of all my blog posts, I always have a little segment where I find a website that I call a 1.0 website, because it was basically a site that would have been made in the mid 90s to the early 2000s and it's still on the internet, which always amazes me, and I'll write a piece about it. And one of them it was a website for a Zyne. Do you remember Zynes?

21:50 - Natalie (Host)

Yes, I do. Oh god, that's going back some years.

21:55 - Caroline (Guest)

This website was great as well and someone got quite excited about that, remembering Zynes. And I love it when someone else can geek out with me because I am a bit obsessed with these websites. I love going and searching for them and finding them and writing about them, and it really has nothing to do with my writing, it's just a nice little bonus for my subscribers.

22:22 - Natalie (Host)

Why not? At this point in time, the internet is now in a tabulexie and tab, that sort of thing, so you could call yourself an internet archaeologist, hunting down all these old graveyards and all these old websites that may or may not still be working. So, yes, why?

22:37 - Caroline (Guest)

not yeah, some might steal that yeah why not?

22:44 - Natalie (Host)

Okay, so I'm just trying to think Are there any other facts you get, any feedback you get from the audience, since there's a huge crossover going on here between the geekery and the fantasy and, of course, the sub-stacks as well, and I like the fact you're documenting your journey as well as you go.

23:03 - Caroline (Guest)

The descent into madness with self-publishing.

23:06 - Natalie (Host)

I think you have to be slightly mad to be a writer in the first place. Frankly, we use the basic camera out the world and hope for the best, and it reorders our thinking at the same time. So it's a constant process of self-creation. Very strong Thank you. I was just going to say, though, with your audience, for example, do you ever get the odd sympathetic comment going I was there, or I felt this, or yep, this is me. Did you identify with you? Definitely?

23:33 - Caroline (Guest)

Definitely, there's only more on the social sides, because a lot of writers will commiserate with each other over there, weren't they?

23:43 - Natalie (Host)

Definitely Speciality. And do you have any tips for anybody new to this journey? The first young newbie who's just starting a first short story competition, or they're about to branch out? Speaking of someone who's been in the trenches for a few years, what would you say to them?

24:01 - Caroline (Guest)

Oh, right what really interests you, I think. Don't chase trends and then just edit, edit, edit. It's really important.

24:18 - Natalie (Host)

Yeah, you can't do enough editing. Generally, when you think you've finished, you've probably got no three types of edit rounds to go. So, yes, I'm with you on that one, okay. So, caroline, thank you so much for your time. Okay, we're going to end the podcast here for everybody. Please check out those links below and I will be reminding you near the time when Caroline's book is launched. Go and look at it. She is a fantastic writer. She said she's a well-deserved Luna Awards winner and I'm looking forward to seeing what she does next. A special virtualisation. Thank you so much for your time, caroline.

24:53 - Caroline (Guest)

Oh, thank you for having me. It's been great