Transcript interview with Leanne Shawler

A writer's life, from the competitions to competitive publishing.

This transcript was created by Podium. You can listen to the interview here.

00:01 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Good afternoon or good morning everyone, depending on when you're logging in this time. This is Natalie from Plotted Out with another one of her author interviews, and this time we are interviewing the supremely talented Leanne Shawler. Leanne is a writer who has recently returned home from the valley when she was born and raised and came back to writing. She has published five romance novels, three of which has been under the soon name, and she did that with King's City Publishing in New York, the last being released in 2007. Then she kind of burned out a bit on the publishing process, something we're going to talk about today, and her art.

00:40

She does both abstract and figurative work in all mediums except oils. There's a no-pressure writing exercise. She started doing that and that brought back the weekly practice for her and brought her back to writing, which is definitely our game, and she's now serialising a series of alternate history romantic novels called the Mordreigiau Chronicleson Substack, and that's how I came across her and she agreed to come here today and talk to us. Thank you very much, Leanne. Can you tell us a bit more about your life and how it progressed?

01:14 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Oh well, gosh. So I guess I started out I was always like a writer and, but my degree was very practical. It was the computer science degree. I was the first in my family to go to university, so it had to be something practical that I could use, which I used for about two years, and then I switched into some administrative work. I moved to the States. I met my husband online, pre-Match.com type stuff and yeah. So I ended up working at his place of work and then here, there and everywhere, including my church and a synagogue, and I spent the last eight years working at the synagogue before we moved back here to Australia, to the Hunter Valley, and I'm officially retired, which is amazing because I now supposedly have all the time to do the things I want to do. I'm finding that's not the case, so so that's where. Where I'm at, we're doing a lot of traveling and I'm a writer again, after 14 years of not doing it. I did the math and couldn't believe it had been that long.

02:28 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Wow, wow. I mean, a lot of people do find their writing passion takes off when they finally have the time and space to do it after retiring from real work. Please note everyone I'm using is inverted commas, because writing is very hard work and of course, you still have your church, you still have your husband and you still have your other art as well. Um, can we see any of that art in your substack, by the way?

02:50 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

um. No, I share a bit of my collage stuff that I do, which is really, you know it's very glue, booky, stick it down, use stickers, have like the fun of a 12 year old basically on the page, um. But now I don't have any of my art anywhere except on Instagram. If you go to my Instagram and scroll back a little way, you'll see some of my art. I'm doing um color pencil sketches at the minute of like birds and animals and it's a lot of fun. That's um, Natalie Eslick, who's also on substack. Um is doing these little challenges, so I've been joining in on those, yeah.

03:29 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Yeah, there's some great stuff happening in Substack at the moment, and it's a very supportive environment for writers, which is an absolute godsend because we've needed it. We've been so far meant it for years as a community. Can you tell us about your writing journey? I mean, you have done everything Almost everyone on Substack has dreamed of, if they haven't done it already, which is you have published novels. You know you went into the romance sector, which is incredibly hard to get into. You know there's so much competition there, and you did it five times. So please tell us about it, your journey.

03:58 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Um, I've always been a writer like. I have a memory of this story I wrote when I was like eight or nine about a schoolyard bully being eaten by a big blue monster and I illustrated it. So I was, so I also marked that as my starting point as a painter, as an artist. And then, yeah, and then I just like write, like I would write in class, like in math class, my friends and and I would write stories backwards or forwards. And I think it was at the end of high school.

04:29

We had that big long summer break before we all went off to college, and I wrote the first draft, what would become my first published book, and let me tell you, it was terrible, it was, it was not good. And then I set it aside, um, the degree got in the way, I guess you could say, because that was pretty intense. And then I emigrated and then I found myself like, oh, maybe I could do some writing just to, because you know, I'm in a place where I know nobody except my husband and getting to know his family. And then I started looking at that Regency Romance again, and it was a way of me to form a community too, because I joined Romance Writers of America, the group organization, the local chapter, so I got to know some people that way and I would say that first book easily rewrote it 10 times, like an insane amount of times.

05:25

And it all came down to learning how to open it. Because I began it with like oh, here she is, she's on a horse, she's having a lovely time thinking about her life. And then I think I attended a workshop and was like begin with a bang, and I took it literally and like, oh, she's just returned her horse to the stables and there's a man with a gun. Okay, that gets the story started.

05:48

Okay, that is literal, took it literally. So yeah, and then, when I sort of stopped writing, I was actually still telling myself stories. Anyway, I would like write them as a first layer on the paintings and then cover it up with a portrait and say what the story, whose story, it was about. So I didn't steer too far away. I'm an excellent daydreamer.

06:11 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Yes, yeah, I'm the same and I find it baffling and really, really fascinating that people can go around without stories in their head. I've constantly got a reel going in my head of the different stories. One of my collaborators and I'm very privileged and proud to work with her called Erin, who does a 100-word story. She's like I now need to write about fairies and like, yes, when do we start? And I've already got four of the books on the go. I'm just like I don't have the time, but I really want to do this. And so, yeah, the stories never stop coming.

06:41 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

It's not possible, yep, and I would also say I was very lucky, um. I was very lucky, um, because I entered a whole bunch of writing contests, as you do when you're in the RWA. Everyone has like a writing contest each chapter, and I went to I think it was in Victoria BC, actually in Canada um, and I find it, I was a finalist in the contest and the editor, who was there to judge and hand things out, said, took us all aside and said yeah, I'd like to buy your book. They just happened to have a whole bunch of openings and she scooped us all up.

07:17 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

It was pretty amazing and just goes to show you that time won out. In some cases that was a bit of luck there. But wow, I think most writers that would be a wish come true.

07:28 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

So congratulations yeah, yeah, it was pretty amazing. So that was it, I think, initially a two book deal.

07:34 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Tell us about your book deals, um, because you wrote five of them and they said you burnt out. So what happened? What went wrong?

07:43 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

oh, um, so uh, I wrote for the Kensington regency romance line, to begin with under my own name, so the two novels of that, and that was kind of like a last ditch revival. Um, I mean, julia quinn back then was just getting started. She had her first two or three novels up at that point, right, so you know, bridgeton hadn't hit the screens, um, and and so it was it's, it was, it was a last ditch attempt to to revive this particular line and then, um, that was it, that was the end of the line. She wanted me to write something else, so I pitched her a few ideas and the line was a very spicy line, shall we say, and I wrote three books in that and the third one was really hard for me to write. It was just generally difficult and I pitched some ideas and then I learned that she was leaving the house, the publishing house, um, and I think I basically kind of got lost there in the mix because I wasn't a bestseller. I wasn't.

08:57

I think I earned out my um advances for the, this third book. I think I can remember it's been so long, but you know it was not a. Yeah, I think I just got a bit lost. And then I kept trying to pitch stuff and I felt like I was back at the beginning again, and that was also at the point where people were being asked, authors were being asked, to self-promote more, and I'm very introverted, so, um yeah. So it got to the point where, like no, I'm done, I don't want to reinvent myself yet again just to get a book sale. I've achieved my goal of being published. We're good we're good.

09:41 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

I mean, you've done more than most people did at that point already, um, and it's a boost for business, especially if you are, um, in the mid-ranks, as they get called. You know you get drummed up very quickly if you're on the low ranks like nope, general book deal, you didn't earn an out, fine. But if you kind of I can do this, I'm steady pace. But you're asking me to keep doing different things, yeah, in any job you're going to burn out. So you've got my sympathy there.

10:04

Yeah yeah, I mean that's a great place to be published at, but uh, so it's a great place to be published at, but yeah, ultimately that I just it was just too much that's fine, then, that that's what happens, but I'm very grateful that you did restart your writing journey and you did it here on Substack, and you are doing something which can only be described as slight insanity, in that you're writing about dragons in serial form every week and publishing it with The Chronicles. Can you tell us about that?

10:45 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

um, yeah, so this is the reflection on what we were talking about just a minute ago. Like I was writing sweet Regency romances and then I was writing spicy historicals and then reinventing, reinventing and part of this coming back to write the more drag iconicals was like ah no, no one niche. It's an alternate history, it's a romanticist, it has romance and fantasy, it has sea dragons. If I can fit anything else in, by golly I will so I'm just going for it yeah and yeah, it's all about what brings me joy.

11:15

It's not, for me, writing on substack is not about getting another book deal. It's not about self-publishing and getting money that way. I'm just doing it for fun. I don't need to like stress myself out with all the other stuff. Just I'm just saying have fun.

11:31

And honestly, one of my friends who heard about my story said, um, so how am I going to read this? And I'm like, oh okay, because not only had I thought up this plot, I'm like I want to make her diary, the heroine's diary, ida Thea's diary. I want to make her diary and it's all going to be hidden journaling, because on the face of it it's going to look like she's a nice, you know Regency lady, but underneath there are sea dragons and quests and looking for the grail and all this kind of stuff. So you know, it was a fun little project. Fantastic, although I didn't realize when I was writing it, because I write by hand to begin with and then I would type it up and then I would write it out again for the hidden journal entry. And yeah, it was a bit much. I'm trying to think of a new way to move forward without having to feel like I'm in detention.

12:32 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

There is no right or wrong way. I know of writers that literally will dictate their novel and it appears on screen and then they've tied it up afterwards, and others that still write by hand. And then there's people like myself that are literally doing it, fly by the seat of their pants and hope for the best, because that's the only way it ever gets out.

12:49 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Yeah, yeah, I found that when I write by hand, it's play for me, it's not work to write it by hand. And then when I type it up, I'm accessing some different part of my brain, like it's. It's like my editing brain from back in my writing days, which I was writing by the seat of my pants at that point, meeting deadlines. Just as it clicks in, I'm like oh no, I can tighten this up here and da, da, da, da, da, da.

13:18 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

And so it's like a whole different part of my brain gets activated, which is interesting it is, but it shows that you do have a process in place and it works for you. Um, you know, you allow the playful part its chance, then you allow the analytical part its chance and what we end up with is an absolutely wonderful chronicle. And we're now up to part 11. So if anyone's listening to this for the first time, go and check it out. Okay, you've got a chance to catch up. Won't take too long, you know, any couple of days, but who needs sleep? And it's a really fantastic story.

13:50

I mean, Leanne does such a great job depicting her sea dragons and the light and the texture and the colour. You can tell she's an artist by the amount of detail she packs into her scenes. So, yeah, thank you Leanne. Yes, so I mean, what is your top tip? I mean, one of the things that was supposed to strike me was that you deliberately reject a genre. You've got a little bit everything going on. You've got the romance, you've got the dragons, you've got fantasy, world, um, but you've got a lot of historical details grounded in there as well. It's great to see you crossing that and going I don't care anymore. I mean it, would that be your tip for anyone writing on Substack just to throw expectations out the window and write what brings you joy.

14:33 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Well, I think you do have to write what brings you joy. And you know, I'm bearing in mind that I'm not expecting my old editor to give me a call and go hey, Leanne, I love what you're doing. Please come back and write for us. I'm not expecting anything like that at all, or even looking for it. So please come back and write for us. I'm not expecting anything like that at all, or even looking for it. So if you're looking to publish, you do have to pay attention to what the publishers actually want. And, of course, there's the whole self-publishing route, which I know nothing about except, no, I know nothing about it.

14:59 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

So yeah, that's absolutely fine, but where would you like to go with this journey?

15:09 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

I mean, where would you like to go with the Chronicles? Um, well, I have five books planned. Hang on, let me count. I write them down. Do I have five books? I definitely have four. I I've committed myself to writing four novels.

15:27

The first one is turning actually into one. This is hard to explain, so I've the one we're reading now on. Substack is called A Grail for Idothea and, um, I've written it all. So what I actually do is I write everything, I edit everything, and then I start putting it up and install, I break it up into installments and start scheduling it. Um, and that's scheduled to finish the end of July.

15:54

Ish, um, yes and yeah, I ended it on a cliffhanger just because I did. And so I've been looking at the next story, the next novel which I had planned, and I'm like, um, no, that was like a gap of like a year between the end of the first one and the second one. I'm like, no, we're gonna have to write all about what happens in that year. So that's what I'm in the middle of doing right now. So that's book two, and then book three was my original planned book two, and then book four was my original planned book three. So hopefully, there aren't any more books, and I'm not pulling a Robert Jordan on anybody, and we'll finish with four in the series, um. And then I want to do a prequel set in Arthurian britain, because I love Arthurian britain like not the you know, the shining knights and armour stuff, but the gritty like post-roman, dark ages um yeah running about and you know leather and stuff.

16:47 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

There's so much going on yeah yeah absolutely. I mean, everyone's been fascinated with that since Tudor times, so you're in good company and there's some fantastic poetry.

16:57 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Yeah and I've recently sort of like, just decided, like to keep YouTube as like a creative vlog, like all the different kind of creative things that I do, and maybe some behind-the-scenes stuff, like how I make each journal and and that kind of thing on each book. So that's what that's a plan for YouTube, just to keep me out of trouble technically.

17:19 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

I mean, you can pull that across into Substack as well, if you wanted to. You know, give your subscribers an extra treat yeah, yeah, I do.

17:27 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

In each installment where we start on your day you get to see me find the page, um. And then I think I think in one of the early instalments, I linked to the making of so they could go have a look if they wanted to. But the conceit of the Substack is that I'm someone who's found this in her attic in a trunk and so it's hard to like bring that making of. I keep that in the chat part of substacks so the subscribers if they want to see something they can go there. And you know I'll put down. This is my rap. Latest research rabbit hole, which was spectacles in the emergency period. That was my latest rabbit hole, um, and that kind of thing so the chat is for me.

18:02 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

I've been watching them.

18:06 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

So, yes, that the chat is is me, me, me, and then the Substack is me, as somebody who looks at things in the attics and finds stuff and spends hours transcribing and trying to decipher the handwriting, which is how I say it takes me so long oh well, to be to be absolutely fair with you, I mean, that reminds me of the never-ending, where he finds that book and starts reading it and he's just delving into the adventure, oh yeah no, I've never actually watched the NeverEnding Story.

18:38 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

I've seen it.

18:39 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

It's okay.

18:39 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

It's okay, it's one of my, I'm showing my age here, but it's one of my childhood staples, so you know, in the 80s. So yes, yes, but it's good. It is really really good about four books, so we can expect to see on Sustack for a very long time?

18:56 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

um, yeah, I have split over. Go on, I was gonna say, yeah, I've worked out. 2028 is when I had to start coming up with something new and we know by that point we'll all have a long list of stuff.

19:06 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

So yeah, I don't think we need to worry too much before then, um, but yes, I mean that is with good preparation that we have that, and I do love the split you've got going on in that we, if you wanted to, you can just delve into the stories and get carried away with them, or you can use the chat option and yes, it really is a research rabbit hole. Just a warning to anyone listening to this you go into the Leanne's chat there's a lot more people on there, she posts something and that's it. That's half the afternoon gone. So, yes, you have been warned. It can be dangerously addictive. But it's also a good way of showing the capabilities of Substack as well and the different things you can do with it, because, as you said, you're not just on Substack, you're also on YouTube and Instagram and you're growing audiences on each for different things. So which brings me to the next question is how do you find time for it all?

19:55 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Well, you know, I thought when I retired I'd have plenty of time to find all of it, to do all of it. But since I've started writing again, I used to paint these big three-foot by three-foot canvases, abstract canvases, and the one down in the studio. That's been a work in progress since November of last year is still a work in progress. I'm not done yet and usually I have three months and I'm done, so I'm a little behind schedule. On the painting, shall we say I've been having a lot of fun doing collaging. On the painting, shall we say I've been having a lot of fun doing collaging. But yeah, I found that once this sank its hooks into me, the painter person, sort of like, became writer, painter, writer person. So I'm all of it. But it's very hard to be multi-passionate and keep track of what you're doing with the book, for example, or where you left the painting yesterday, kind of thing.

But it's all fun, it's all fun, but there's that moment you're like hang on a second. How come it's April already and you? Know you've got the corner of your porch, really looking at you yeah. Yeah when I was working. I can't help you picking up your brush.

Yeah, when I was working I couldn't imagine writing and painting, because painting was a stress relief for post-work and also a joy and a delight and a whole process. But it was. You know. I would go and I'd paint for 15 minutes at the end of my workday and that would be soul-feeding and good and great, and you know. But to write, you know I need at least an hour to get into into the head, into the flow of everything and remember where I left off and have the music playing and yeah, I have like almost a whole ritual now.

21:46 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

I am deeply envious. Um, if you don't mind me asking what, can you tell us a bit more about your plotting process, because you mentioned you have books planned to 2028 and I appreciate some of that will be daydreaming like, yes, I want to put this in that, but do you have a defined process you go through for creating your plots and your characters?

22:06 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

um, the characters, kind of, are just who they are. I recently started using Scrivener because I was losing track of various things for each of the characters. I don't want to spoil it for anybody, but there are various things happening. There's a magical birthmark and I couldn't remember which shoulder it was on. So I'm like, okay, I need somewhere to keep track of all these little details that I just drop in on the way. But yeah, it starts up with the idea and I will sit with that idea.

22:39

Well, for this first one, coming back to writing, I think I sat with it for about a month, two months into three, before I'm like, oh yeah, this is a thing, this was like last year. This is a thing. This was like last year. This is a thing. I really should do this. And then I mind mapped.

22:53

I used a mind map app on my iPad and started, you know, writing out what would happen. And then I would, every now and then, get stuck. And then we're, like, you know, just brainstorm it could be this, it could be this, it could be that, and just like, put little bubbles everywhere and then pick a bubble and move forward. Um, I also did the good old-fashioned post-it notes on the wall because there are. There are two male leads in this story and I and I was like beginning to write it and I'm like, wait, we haven't heard from the other one for a while. Maybe we should, and so it helped. I color-coded them to keep track of, but someone wasn't getting all the air time, um, and so they're on the mind map issues.

It is storyboarding, um, making sure that you know there were turning points, making sure that you know there were turning points, and all that good stuff as well, like it wasn't just dribbling on for no good reason, that things were actually happening. And then I start writing it. I start writing it by hand and the characters will say something and then I'm like, well, there goes my plot. So I say I would plot everything. And then my characters have different ideas and I'm like am I going to listen to you or am I going to follow this rabbit hole? We're here for the fun. We're here for the fun. I will follow that rabbit hole and re-plot as necessary, and sometimes it is really cool stuff. I'm like, oh, I would never have thought of that in a million years. Although like, oh, I would never have thought of that in a million years, although obviously I did, but I would never have thought of that in a million years. And so it's ended up with a lot of interesting twists and turns and you know, I think about the book when I'm not writing the book. Every now and then I'll burst out with something and my husband looks at me and goes. It's the book, isn't it? I'm like, yeah, it's so cool, you shouldn't think what I just thought of. It'd be great. I can't wait. Um, but yeah, um, yeah, yeah, so, um, at Scrivener I came back to that because, well, I started using it because I the second book.

25:02

I was like writing a bit, stopping writing like three months before and then two months after, and I couldn't keep track of when things were happening. And I knew I had an entire year to fill in. So I started keeping track of the dates. I was setting dates for all my scenes so I would know that, oh good, we're in the middle of October, only two months to go, great. So instead of going, oh crap, it's June, I have six months to fill. What do I do?

25:31 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

I have a feeling somehow in your world that is not a problem. You're never short of false ideas or strange happenstances or, yeah, things going on.

25:40 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

It's just a question of making the bridge between the two, yeah yeah, it's just a matter of finding it, of finding that that little, and sometimes I just have to walk away from it and I'll go paint. At that point, usually, if I'm really frustrated, I'll go and paint for a while or go for a walk or go on a drive somewhere, and then, oh okay, no, I've got it now. Good, let's go back to the writing.

26:02 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Yeah, sometimes you need that break. You really do, I mean. So here's a question as an experienced novelist have you ever written a character you intensely disliked that had to keep going with it?

26:11 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

That I intensely disliked and had to keep going with.

26:14 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Mm yes.

26:16 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

You mean, like outside, the villain, mm, no, I don't think I could be a villain. Well, there are characters I don't like, but you know, then they're just there to serve the plot, you know they're. I'm not invested in them like I'm invested with my like leads, um, all the cute sidekick characters, um, so, yeah, um, no, I, I I don't, you know, feel too repulsed by anybody. I'll be as disgusted as the heroine when someone's machinations become clear.

26:52 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

But I keep writing it because you know, but you never had to go, ah, yeah. Yeah, it's just that there'll be other writers I've spoken to. Yeah, they've had that. They've got this character. It started out great. Then he turned out not to be so nice but had to keep going because he's integral to the plot.

27:08 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

so oh, yeah, yeah, I have had characters you know who are supposed to be the heroes, make you know like snide remarks and I'm like right, how do I redeem that? How do I, how do we come back from that? You're supposed to be treating her nice, you, you know.

27:22 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Yeah, that's a very Jane Austen, Mr Darcy, moment when everything he says comes out wrong, and she takes it one way and then replays it another. So yeah, really clever writing there. Who is your literary hero or heroine? Who do you look up to?

27:44 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

As authors? Do you? You mean, or fictional characters?

27:48 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

both just as authors.

27:56 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Louis McMasters. She writes science fiction and fantasy, not at the same time. Um, her book series is incredible. Highly recommend reading that because she just brings characters alive. In fact, I channel her, her lead character, miles. After I read the book, I'm walking around behaving like a manic. Miles Volkozigan because she's just so good. Um, so she's amazing. Georgette Heyer, way back when I love her. Um, I tend to like the jane austen movie adaptations and tv adaptations more than her books.

28:32 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Jane Eyre is my choice.

28:43 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Yeah, Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte is my all-time favorite book. Like I have read that several times, several times over Terry Pratchett, who's fantasy does great pacing. I love his stuff, yeah, and there are some good sub-stackers too.

29:11 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Yeah, yeah, oh gosh. Yes, totally, 100%. Where do you think the inspiration for the current Chronicles came from?

29:23 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Yeah, it's interesting because I thought I knew what the start of this was and then just recently, in writing the current work and process, something happened. Can't tell you what, but I'm like I painted that seven years ago. I painted that and I'm like, and it just popped back up into the story and I'm like, what, the what, the um? But no, it started out because I wanted a traveler's notebook and a second one, and I came up with this idea of like doing a diary for somebody. And the idea because traveler's notebook is, you know, it's japanese and I'm totally into k-dramas, I love k-dramas like you would not believe, um, and, and I thought, what if we said it in like choson, korea? And I was like, having this whole idea, I'm like, no, no, wait, wait, lian, check, we're not korean, we only know K-drama, korea. Do we think we can write this? No, like, well, I really still want to do this collage diary with like hidden journaling and what should I do about that?

30:37

And I remember a story I had started, one of those false starts when I was reinventing myself to get published again, and there was this scene that I had actually dreamed and it was a woman on out on a pier and the water is rising and it's beginning to flood the pier and there are people and things floating in the water and she's rescuing them and then a dragon like sort of pops up to the surface and I'm like, yeah, that that was a good story. Whatever happened to that story? So I went and dug it out, the three chapters and the synopsis, and the synopsis was terrible. Oh my god, it's awful. Um, and then the rest of it kind of like just sprung into my head. I really couldn't tell you exactly how Idathia came into being, but the genesis of it was in.

31:34

Yeah, for some reason, I wanted to set it on the west coast of Wales which I've never been, to, which I'm going to this summer. I'm very excited about that.

31:42 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

You absolutely should. It's beautiful. It's beautiful down there, oh my gosh. But what I will say is we can say with some definitive now that it has been 14 years in the making, just bubbling ideas of conscience and waiting for you at the right time, exactly.

32:00 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

And when you think it took me about 10 years to get my first book published, it's about the same period of time. Yeah, yeah, there we go, Scotty. Never give up your dreams, that old dusty novel that you started back in high school.

32:13 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

Drag it out into the light again and start revising it seriously, um, you're not the first author I've interviewed on the sub site Leanne who's done this, who's gone, done something else, then came back to the books, and it does feel that books need a period of time to reflect on, and even if you're not consciously working on it, it's there waiting in the background for you. Genius never dies, yeah.

32:37 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

And I would say, if perhaps I resisted this call, this invitation to become a writer again, I would have still daydreamed with this entire story, entertained myself and absolutely nobody else with what was going on. So it keeps me out of trouble, like I said.

32:57 - Natalie Phillips (Host)

On the plus side, you do have an avid audience now waiting for the next installment, and it looks good. And, as I said, we've now thankfully got another four years of this Qualicore and all the stuff that happens in it. So if anyone hasn't had the chance yet, please go along, take a good look at the Qualicores, sign up, enjoy yourself and, with Leanne's permission, I will also add in the links to her YouTube and Instagram so you can see for yourself what her talent is like for art. So, thank you so much for coming on this morning. Thank you for your time.

33:27 - Leanne Shawler (Host)

Thank you so much Thank you. Natalie, thank you, until next time yes.